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HPSCHD-L  April 2016

HPSCHD-L April 2016

Subject:

Re: HPSCHD-L Digest - 6 Apr 2016 to 7 Apr 2016 (#2016-85)

From:

michael johnson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

michael johnson <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:09:15 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)


Over 45 years I have made plenty of experiments, I won't bore you with them.   But Paul makes total sense here.

M



Sent from myMail for iOS


Saturday, 9 April 2016, 06:36 +0100 from [log in to unmask]  <[log in to unmask]>:
>There is no reason to theorize or use intuition in the matter of pin sizes in early keyboards - there is plenty of measurable evidence available in the antiques.  The late English builders didn’t invent  using different sizes since it started well before them.  Grant’s Ruckers book shows a pretty consistent approach on their part to sizing pins, correlating with sizes of models and between 8’ and 4’ registers.  The 18th-century French certainly used different sizes of pins within the same instrument (as witness the Goermans/Taskin), an approach which was quite different than the apparent 17th-c. French,  English or Italian approaches.  Judging by one carefully-measured famous example, Kirckman appears to have used at least five different sizes of bridge pins from about 1.0 mm to 1.9, three different sizes of nut pins, and at least two different sizes of backpins.  I haven’t experimented enough yet with the consequences or benefits of using different sizes of backpins, but the different sizes for nut and bridge pins definitely provide a way to effect the speech, timbre, and sustain envelope of the strings, and were used by historical builders to tailor the sound across the compass of their instrument.  They undoubtedly had noticed the properties od different pins and then exploited them.  At least that’s my working assumption, since the various pinning approaches that do use different sizes of pins seem to correlate better with various factors such as time period, size of instrument, relative size of bridge, power desired, etc., than with thinking that the approach was just a whimsy on the part of the builder or the result of an interest in numerology perhaps.
>
>Bending center pins in bridges or nuts, as David pointed out, is certainly a bad idea since their stiffness is enough to easily damage the wood around the hole.  On the other hand, historical builders did not use anything like a center pin, since the material used for them did not exist.  More significant than the potential damage this stiffness can cause is the unhistorical musical consequences.   Doing simple experiments of exchanging the same size pins made of different materials should make apparent that using materials of different physical properties effects the sound produced by the string.  I’ve only encountered one person who could not hear any difference, and dozens who have.  So it would seem that if the intent of building an early keyboard instrument is to produce a sound heard historically, then copying the materials and sizes of the pins typically used historically is more likely to get closer to that sound than not using them, or what was the original point of copying to begin with?  If the intent of building is not for producing historical sound but to make a sound that you and perhaps others like, then anything can be used to that end, but understanding the roles that pin sizes and materials play in altering the vibrations of a string, and in adjusting the system reactances for more resonance, provides a valuable aid to producing that desired sound.
>
>
>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 9:00 PM, HPSCHD-L automatic digest system < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>> 
>> There are 8 messages totaling 365 lines in this issue.
>> 
>> Topics of the day:
>> 
>>  1. Bridge Pin Depth (6)
>>  2. Storace Ciacona
>>  3. Storace Ciacona and d'Anglebert Folies
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 00:01:12 -0500
>> From:    Andrew Seemann < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> I'm building a Keene & Brackley style spinet and had a question on how deep to drill the bridge pin holes.  The bridge is half inch wide and about the same tall.  Any recommendations?  Thanks!
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 22:05:05 +1000
>> From:    Andrew Bernard < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Re: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>> Hi Andrew,
>> 
>> Not too shallow and not too deep. Goldilocks and the Three Bears! Seriously, don’t drill through the bottom of the bridge, and don’t make them too shallow or the pins won’t have a firm purchase.
>> 
>> Others will be certain to disagree, since everything in harpsichord making is subject to controversy, but I can tell you that more important than millimetre specification of pin hole depths is that you should hammer the pins in right to the bottom of the hole you have drilled. Although there is not a shred of scientific evidence for it, I am convinced that if there is ‘air’ beneath the pin in the hole on the bridge that the sound is less than optimal. In fact, you can often make a subtle improvemen to the sound of an intstrument by taking your hammer and firmly seating all the bridge pins properly (where possible). Admittedly this is subtle, but I claim you can hear it. One of those little things that all add up.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/04/2016, 15:01, "Harpsichords and Related Topics on behalf of Andrew Seemann" < [log in to unmask] on behalf of  [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> I'm building a Keene & Brackley style spinet and had a question on how deep to drill the bridge pin holes.  The bridge is half inch wide and about the same tall.  Any recommendations?  Thanks!
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:03:00 -0400
>> From:    David Jensen < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Re: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>> There has been some empirical evidence that letting the distal end of the
>> pin stick below the sound board is beneficial, although my take is that it
>> makes little difference. What is important is that you should avoid having
>> all the pins bottoming out with the tips digging into the wood at the
>> bottom. Likewise, be careful that the pins do not stick into the sound
>> board, unless you are fond of sound board cracks.
>> The fit of the pin should be quite snug, but not so snug that you need to
>> pound it in.
>> Keep in mind that our bridge pins are also piano action centre pins, and
>> are available in different diameters, in case your holes turn out to be a
>> bit not snug enough.
>> -d
>> On Apr 7, 2016 1:02 AM, "Andrew Seemann" < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi folks,
>>> 
>>> I'm building a Keene & Brackley style spinet and had a question on how
>>> deep to drill the bridge pin holes.  The bridge is half inch wide and about
>>> the same tall.  Any recommendations?  Thanks!
>>> 
>>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>>> 
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:24:21 +1000
>> From:    Andrew Bernard < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Re: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>> Not only that, but I believe there is evidence that various English makers such as Kirkman and Shudi use graded diameter pins with ever so slightly increasing sizes in the bass. This is what I am told.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/04/2016, 23:03, "Harpsichords and Related Topics on behalf of David Jensen" < [log in to unmask] on behalf of  [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>> 
>> Keep in mind that our bridge pins are also piano action centre pins, and
>> are available in different diameters, in case your holes turn out to be a
>> bit not snug enough.
>> 
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:27:59 +0000
>> From:    JOHN BRODSKY < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Re: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>> Hi Andrew. I'd be cautious before crediting the English makers on this. Larger bass pins are an intuitive leap, but intuition is not always to be trusted..Perhaps larger treble pins are better.  In the history of the English makers a case in point might be made with regard to the bracing on those of their surviving instruments which suffer cheek disease. About 40 years ago I sat at a garden party with Willard Martin celebrating the delivery of one of his harpsichords and I asked him about the cheek disease suffered by my six year old instrument - which I had made, using intuition, after my start with the indestructible "obligatory  Z-box".. When I explained what I had done he informed me that treble bracing is "counter intuitive".
>> John
>> 
>>      From: Andrew Bernard < [log in to unmask] >
>> To:  [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2016 11:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>> Not only that, but I believe there is evidence that various English makers such as Kirkman and Shudi use graded diameter pins with ever so slightly increasing sizes in the bass. This is what I am told.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/04/2016, 23:03, "Harpsichords and Related Topics on behalf of David Jensen" < [log in to unmask] on behalf of  [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>> 
>> Keep in mind that our bridge pins are also piano action centre pins, and
>> are available in different diameters, in case your holes turn out to be a
>> bit not snug enough.
>> 
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:13:01 -0400
>> From:    Rodney Myrvaagnes < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Storace Ciacona
>> 
>> Barbara is learning this piece. It astonishes me in two ways: The wealth
>> of invention and the hard work in putting together so many variations on
>> a ground.
>> 
>> Listening to them in all their variety makes them sound like a
>> collection to be mined (as Handel and others did with their own) for
>> operas and other pieces. Chaconnes are effective endings for operas
>> whenever you have enough characters still alive, and Storace gave
>> himself material for any collection of voices left standing. He could
>> have gotten at least four operas out..
>> 
>> Does anyone know of any derivative pieces from him?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Rodney Myrvaagnes
>>  [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:37:20 +0200
>> From:    "J. Claudio Di Veroli" < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Re: Storace Ciacona and d'Anglebert Folies
>> 
>> My favourite one (by a long far) is also in ternary metre, though certainly
>> not a Ciaccona in rhythm, it was also composed in the 2nd half of the 17th
>> c.: d'Anglebert's Variations sur les Folies d'Espagne.
>> Every single trick in French Baroque performance is needed to make the most
>> of it, but the result is amazing.
>> It is one of my favourite keyboard works from the whole century.
>> The variations are 22, and a few can be suppressed to shorten the piece and
>> increase its "punch". It can be downloaded for free from IMSLP:
>> 
>>  http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/bf/IMSLP304260-PMLP43812-angleber
>> t_pieces_de_clavecin.pdf
>> 
>> (though many will find it hard to read the r.h. on C 1st-line clef and F
>> 3rd-line clef, and will prefer a modern edition with G and F clefs.)
>> 
>> Best
>> CDV
>>  http://play.braybaroque.ie/
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harpsichords and Related Topics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Rodney Myrvaagnes
>> Sent: 07 April 2016 21:13
>> To:  [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Storace Ciacona
>> 
>> Barbara is learning this piece. It astonishes me in two ways: The wealth
>> of invention and the hard work in putting together so many variations on
>> a ground.
>> 
>> Listening to them in all their variety makes them sound like a
>> collection to be mined (as Handel and others did with their own) for
>> operas and other pieces. Chaconnes are effective endings for operas
>> whenever you have enough characters still alive, and Storace gave
>> himself material for any collection of voices left standing. He could
>> have gotten at least four operas out..
>> 
>> Does anyone know of any derivative pieces from him?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Rodney Myrvaagnes
>>  [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>  https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:59:19 -0500
>> From:    Richard Schaumloffel < [log in to unmask] >
>> Subject: Re: Bridge Pin Depth
>> 
>>> Hi Andrew,
>> 
>>> Not too shallow and not too deep. Goldilocks and the Three Bears! Seriously, don’t drill through the bottom of the bridge, and don’t make them too shallow or the pins won’t have a firm purchase.
>> 
>>> Others will be certain to disagree, since everything in harpsichord making is subject to controversy, but I can tell you >that more important than millimeter specification of pin hole depths is that you should hammer the pins in right to the >bottom of the hole you have drilled. Although there is not a shred of scientific evidence for it, I am convinced that if there >is ‘air’ beneath the pin in the hole on the bridge that the sound is less than optimal. In fact, you can often make a subtle >improvement to the sound of an instrument by taking your hammer and firmly seating all the bridge pins properly (where >possible). Admittedly this is subtle, but I claim you can hear it. One of those little things that all add up.
>> 
>>> Andrew
>> 
>> I remember a maker doing this hammering in of bridge pins on a Hubbard Baker Harris spinet, after the deed was done I noticed a crack in the treble end of the bridge (cross grain). I don't care how far the pins go in and whether there is any air below the pins also hammering pins in further beyond the bottom of the hole ie into solid wood may cause splits to form. If I catch anyone hammering in bridge pins on one of my instruments or even bending pins ,watch out!
>> 
>> Richard
>> 
>> P.S. there was also a theory kicking around that hammering in a pin exposed a new surface on the pin in contact with the string which allegedly improved the tone.
>> 
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>> tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>> versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>>  [log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> End of HPSCHD-L Digest - 6 Apr 2016 to 7 Apr 2016 (#2016-85)
>> ************************************************************
>
>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
>tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
>versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
>[log in to unmask] saying  HELP .
>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 
 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 
Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con- 
tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni- 
versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to 
[log in to unmask]  saying  HELP . 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 

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