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Harpsichords and Related Topics

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Subject:
From:
"T. Diehl" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Harpsichords and Related Topics <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Mon, 8 Feb 2016 02:32:35 +0000
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David Picket:

It does not matter if you use the term Hertz, Marconi's or Macaroni's -
they are all - as you point out, totally arbitrary conventions. Call the
sinusoid in the link I sent a "Marconi" - it changes nothing about the
discussion.


In 440 Hz, (or Marconi's or Macaroni's or Pickett's) 440 complete waveforms
reach your ear during one second. You might as well debate the flat earth
theory if you don't believe this.


(And no Rodney, indeed your ear has no internal clock….Which is exactly my
point. This is why the ear cannot discern 415.03 from 415, and electronic
devices can.)


You must also know full well that sound waves are physical manifestations
of a cyclical nature. And of course they don't stop at 1 second, the
picture used for discussion represents one complete cycle.


But your ear literally uses a little 'drumhead' to measure this cycle in
analogue fashion. Which is why you need a full wave cycle to perceive a
clear pitch. Is this really so hard to follow? The physical working of the
ear is central to my discussion, not your 'Macaroni' number story.


If the tympanum does not go through a full cycle the pitch aspect is
compromised because of the mechanical, analogue nature of the ear's
working, and will be sensed as color. Read up on the human ear online if
you don't believe me; 1 Hz differentiation is the guideline.


The fact you bring up - that my statement is wrong because one can hear a
glissando spanning 2 tones, is pure obfuscation of the discussion, because
you would not hear a pitch change from 415 to 415.3, you would hear only a
change of color. Talk with a traverso player to find out more.


David Hitchin

I really, really wish people would READ what I wrote instead of changing
the object of that which is being dicussed. Here is your quote:


DH: "I think that another major flaw in the argument is that harpsichords
do not emit pure sine waves; each note has a series of harmonics."

TD: I never said they did emit pure sine waves. As i wrote: to keep the
explanation simple for everyone to follow I used a simple sinus pattern.
And I talking about the ear's inner workings, not the overtones of
harpsichords.

DH: "..No one with any experience tunes by comparing the fundamental sounds
of two strings; we tune by listening to the beating of harmonics, and so a
difference of 0.3Hz in a fundamental multiplies to a much larger difference
between the respective harmonics of the notes."

TD:Again: I am not discussing tuning, which is indeed even more complex. I
am talking about the perception of a single tone within the human ear;
obviously difficult enough to discuss online without discussing overtones!


Benjamin

Thanks for your points, brought in fun way.

I also do not care about the zero's. I care about the full cycle of the
typanum in and out.  In '440 Hz' 440 complete waves reach the ear during
each second and thereafter.

Let me repeat that: In '440 Hz' 440 waves reach the ear each second and
thereafter.


I am not however discussing cents or the variation in human sensitivity to
pitch at different frequencies or how cents work in relation to fixed
pitches! What I AM discussing how the soundwaves that travel through the
air are translated into the perception of a discrete pitch by the ear.
(i.e. 415 vs. 415.03 Hz) The tympanum moves in and out in exact correlation
to the frequencies that reach it. In analogue fashion, the beats of each
complete cycle in time 'get counted' (highly simplified explanation here of
course).

In other words, the ear is not digital; it cannot count incomplete wave
patterns because it needs to physically move in order to perceive pitch.
You say I am flatly wrong; if so then please elucidate as you seem at home
with these topics...


Jonathan Addleman

TD: Hi Jonathan, If you are using a tuning device, they are none more
accurate than +/- 1 cent. Whether iPhone or discrete device.

JA: "..Not true at all. The one I mostly use, ttuner, is accurate to far
more than 1 cent, and usually doesn't use cents at all. Most of the time I
tune by ear, in any case, so that's not an issue even with cleartune..."

TD: Sigh...Jonathan, T-tuner is accurate to +/- 0.5 cent. Which is 1 cent
deviation...Cleartune is +/- 1 cent, which is 2 cents deviation. Cent
deviation is different depending on the octave you are in, but the most
standard point for these specs is the area around 440


Andrew

Thanks for your input. I am not a scientist. Musicians of course use Hz,
not 'Mels'and 'furphys'. Can we stick with that please? I never mentioned
that the ear waits for anything. But here is a quote directly from the page
you have copied:


“...Some findings indicate that, for moderate loudness levels, humans can
detect a frequency change of about 1 to 3 Hz for frequencies up to about
1000 Hz….”


Which is exactly my point about people using 415.03 deluding themselves.


Cheers all,

Theodore

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