I have been hiding behind my ignorance for a bit on this thread - I don't
understand the usage of the term "comma" (I hope I am not alone in this)
I have found this all enlightening and instructive. I have been wondering
however why there have been so many temperaments developed over time. This
would explain why Bach sounds good on some organs and not on others. Does
anyone have an idea of the temperaments of his organs? I know he played on
a number of them and am wondering if this may have had an influence on his
writing.
Fred in Toronto
-----Original Message-----
From: Pipe Organs and Related Topics
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brad Lehman
Sent: October 24, 2006 10:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "Out of tune thirds", more Buxtehude - and Bach!
>>More Buxtehude from YouTube. This time, Bernard Foccroulle plays
>>the Toccata in d minor (BuxWV 155) on the Schnitger organ of St.
>>Ludgerikirche, Norden. This instrument is in the 'Norden
>>Temperament' which is particularly crunchy. On top of all that,
>>the organ sounds a bit out of tune as well, which adds even more
>>crunch:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DROr7_YH7eo&mode=related&search=
That "Norden Temperament" was developed c1984 by Harald Vogel, for
Jurgen Ahrend's restoration of that particular Schnitger organ.
Disposition:
http://www.die-orgelseite.de/disp/D_Norden_StLudgeri.htm
I included its recipe among my published materials February 2005,
downloadable from here:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/outline.html
("Supplementary Data" files as "appendix" and "comparative charts"...)
and summarized in a few simpler charts here:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/comparison.html
That "Norden" temperament is a 1/5 comma system, with all the seven
naturals plus F# in regular positions, but the other four accidentals as
compromises (and two wide 5ths) to close the circle. Like this:
- F-C-G-D-A-E-B-F# all in 1/5 Pythagorean comma, narrow
- F#-C#-G# pure
- F-Bb pure
- G#-Eb-Bb 1/5 comma wide each
Comparing it briefly with Kellner's, since they're both based on the
same tempering size: the naturals C-G-D-A-E are in the same places. C-E
and Eb-G are the same size as in Kellner's. The F-A, Bb-D, G-B, D-F#,
A-C#, and E-G# are all smaller (more nearly pure) than Kellner's. The
B-D# is Pythagorean (like Kellner's Ab-C, Db-F, and F#-A#). The other
three major 3rds (Ab-C, Db-F, F#-A#) in the "Norden" are considerably
wider, and "wolfish" akin to their sounds in regular meantone temperaments.
The major 3rds F-A, C-E, G-B, D-F#, A-C#, Bb-D, and E-G# are all
narrower than they are in equal temperament. Eb-G is slightly wider
than in ET, and the remaining four are much more noticeably out there.
That is, this whole thing preserves the same eight "good" and four "bad"
major triads as in regular meantone systems.
There's lots of variety there when moving from the simple keys to those
with more than a few sharps or flats. It's rather like a stronger or
more intense version of Vallotti's basic shape. It's also stronger in
that particular shape than Werckmeister III, IV, or V. Its closest
relative here, in overall effect, is Werckmeister IV.
The overall effect is also similar to that of the Fisk organ at the
University of Michigan's school of music; another 1/5 comma Vogel
temperament there, with similar shape.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jkibbie/fisk.htm
I hope this bit of technical analysis didn't completely bore everybody.
The broader point is not merely to measure minutiae like this, but
rather to play music and hear if it works out.
Brad Lehman
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tributors and not necessarily those of the list owners nor of the Uni-
versity at Albany. For a brief summary of list commands, send mail to
[log in to unmask] saying GET LSVCMMDS.TXT or see the web
page at http://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/lsvcmmds.html .
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