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Subject:
From:
Andrew Appel <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Harpsichords and Related Topics <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Sat, 3 Dec 2016 10:42:39 -0500
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JUST A THOUGHT
Ive had a bit of a hard time reading this discussion.  Ill tell you why.
Of course, I think this work is a masterpiece of French Classical Tragedy.  It takes me mostly to the soliloquies in Racine.  But it is also filled with grand ballet gesture.  There is the allusion in each couplet to varied orchestral sounds.  There are so many musical and rhetorical gestures to mine in this powerful piece of music.

It may or may not be of interest to anyone..but my own solution about how to roll the chords is based in a desire to make each phrase more urgent, almost on the brink of “out of control” and then receding into the rondeau again.

Now, how we roll these chords..and we have a large palate to work with, for a musician, needs to be based on what sort of rhetoric, what intensity of expression, what allusion to body movement, we feel is right (very personal) for the moment and the couplet.  Saying..I should roll from the base ON THE BEAT, or BEFORE THE BEAT…etc..well..it strikes me as being academic and stultifying.  

I would suggest listening to a great actress as Phaedra…looking at a beautifully danced chaconne from a Lully opera, looking at a portrayal of a doomed heroine in French late 17th century art…and start your inquiries there…  

WHAT do you want to happen…what music do you want to make..and then discuss how starting the roll ON the beat from the bass makes this work…or how starting it before the beat gives a sense of loss of balance to also make some affect work…

JUST a thought…

ANDREW
> On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:03 PM, J. Claudio Di Veroli <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> OK, I have now been 15 minutes "fighting" with this Couplet, and the more I
> try, the more I prefer solution (4): r.,h. chord strikes with the l.h.
> lowest note, then the l.h. proceeds with its fast arpeggio.
> 
> 
> 
> In this particular case there is a further twist, because most r.h. chords
> are simple, but there is a single exception in the 6th bar, 3rd beat, where
> the r.h. chord has a coulé: here I also play strictly the score, that is,
> two upward arpeggios, in parallel with their 4 notes each (in counterpoint
> terms this sounds fine even if played very slow!, although this is obviously
> not the case here).
> 
> 
> 
> Still looking for further ideas . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> 
> 
> CDV
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> From: J. Claudio Di Veroli [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 02 December 2016 19:30
> To: 'Harpsichords and Related Topics'
> Subject: F. Couperin's Passacaille arpeggios
> 
> 
> 
> Revisiting this famous piece, let me review different ways to play two-hand
> upward arpeggios in Baroque music.
> 
> 
> 
> (1) Romantic tradition: arpeggio in both hands, starting with the l.h.
> before the beat, so that the top r.h. note falls on the beat.
> 
> 
> 
> (2) Same but only l.h. arpeggio: start as above with the l.h. before the
> beat, and end with the r.h. chord (this one with no arpeggio)
> 
> 
> 
> (3) Usual Baroque custom: the lowest l.h. note starts on the beat, and we
> proceed with the remaining notes. The last r.h. note strikes significantly
> after the beat.
> 
> 
> 
> Problem is, this sounds fine in most situations, but not quite natural when
> this last note is an important beat note. Probably the solution depends on
> every single example.
> 
> One I find difficult is F. Couperin's Passacaille from the 8e Ordre. In the
> 7e. Couplet (yes, the one with the famous "x"!), perhaps significantly, all
> the arpeggios are notated for the left hand only, and the semiquaver seems
> to rule-out any before-the-beat thing. I have been playing both (1) and (3)
> above, but now believe I have been wrong, as a further possibility is as
> follows:
> 
> 
> 
> (4) The l.h. plays an on-the-beat arpeggio: the r.h. chord is played with no
> arpeggio on the beat: clearly, the first-and-lowest l.h. note strikes
> together with the r.h. chord.
> 
> Strictly speaking, this is what the composer wrote in this score.
> 
> 
> 
> I find that both (3) and (4) sound equally "natural", so I went and checked
> five recordings, expecting some to follow one, others the other, but to my
> surprise things were different!:
> 
> 
> 
> Wanda Landowska - some arpeggios (1) others (4)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwLC3DNkHY
> 
> 
> 
> Anton Heiller - all (1)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QP0d6Ue_bs
> 
> 
> 
> Kenneth Gilbert - mostly (1) and a few (4)
> 
> (from my own CD)
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Borgstede - all (1)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWs4KSQr4Vw
> 
> 
> 
> Christophe Rousset - most (1), some (2)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqa0MXZP_wg
> 
> 
> 
> Olivier Baumont - some (1), most (2)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l67BO5nscWM
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps some distinguished members "hear" otherwise ... ?
> 
> 
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> 
> 
> CDV
> 
> 
> 
> ---
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Note:  opinions  expressed on HPSCHD-L are those of the  individual con-
tributors and not necessarily  those of the list owners  nor of the Uni-
versity of Iowa.  For a brief  summary of list  commands, send mail to
[log in to unmask]  saying  HELP .
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