At 01:14 PM 11/27/2004 -0500, John wrote:
>...
> >
> >You can see where I'm going in terms of hpschd content, I'm sure.  The old
> >guys understood their acoustic science and engineering.
>
>Yes, of course they did, but I'm not sure that "engineering" in the
>modern sense even existed as a concept.  During a 7-10 year
>apprenticeship you learn your materials, you try (within the limits
>set by your master) different things, you "become one with" your
>materials (for want of a better term), and you become able to work
>with them and bring out their best at an almost instinctive level.  I
>have never doubted that.  In a very real sense it was a
>whole-to-parts approach, with the final goal ALWAYS to produce the
>best instrument those materials could produce, and therefore always a
>willingness to adjust what needed adjusting to reach that goal.  A
>modern engineering approach (and this school turns out a great many
>well-prepared engineers in a variety of fields, and I have great
>respect for them) strikes me as being more of a parts-to-whole
>approach, in which if every subsystem is accurately put together and
>functions, the "whole" will function as designed.  But if scientific
>analysis can produce perfection, why are 17th and 18th century
>violins and 19th century bows still considered the gold standard?


Well, that's what passes for "conventional wisdom" on the list, but how
does one KNOW how the old guys thought?  The evidence is in the products
that they produced, which is also the case for the visual arts.  I can look
at a Da Vinci and his use of perspective is pretty obvious, but what is the
equivalent evidence for the acoustics?  Yes, it's clear that the old guys
must have known how to get they wanted acoustically, or at least some of
them did.  But the thought processes seem more obscure to me than would be
case for the visual arts.  It has been stated on the list, and I believe
it, that building reproductions of the old instruments can lead one to a
level of holistic understanding of how the things work acoustically, but
how do we know that that understanding is not "contaminated," so to speak,
by modern thinking?

Yeah, it's my same old rant, but I keep seeing and experiencing things that
draw me back to thinking about it again.


>But, on the question you actually asked, I think you're on to
>something.  I do think that an educated European knows more about
>esthetics and art than the average educated American.  It's been part
>of the culture for much, much longer, and I suspect that it is taken
>much more for granted that this is a subject suitable for intelligent
>conversation, as it was for the Florentine Camerata in the 1580s.
>
>It may have been on Orchestralist not too many months ago that
>someone was commenting on a trip to Hungary for a major conducting
>competition.  Now Kodaly's goal in revamping the music education
>system in Hungary was not to develop professional musicians, but to
>develop a musically educated and aware general population.  The
>fellow on Orchestralist described how he stopped by a vegatable stand
>and started discussing the competition with the vendor, who was very
>aware of it and had very intelligent comments on the different
>competitors, and other citizens who stopped by to check out the
>vegatables jumped right into the conversation.  I can't even imagine
>that happening here in a group of music professors, let alone in a
>group waiting for the cash registers at Wallmart!!


Yeah, I have surmised that what John says here is true. But among the
analyses that I have read in the aftermath of the recent election I have
seen several statements that the affects of the Enlightenment were deeper
and longer lasting in Europe than in the US, which is ironical given that
we frequently cite our constitution as an Enlightenment phenomenon.  Is the
level of interest and education in Europe that John describes also an
Enlightenment phenomenon?  If so, does the connection between science and
the arts figure into the discussion?  I think that is at the root of my
question.

And what if anything does this have to do with so-called "post
modernism?"  We saw some stuff in Vienna that reminded me of "Da Da,"
insofar as I understand what that was.

JB



>John
>
>
>--
>John & Susie Howell
>Virginia Tech Department of Music
>Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
>Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
>(mailto:[log in to unmask])
>http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html